Playing with a Big Band

Well, again the HOD'rs think they know it all. It's ok. Of course if you jump into a situation you have to read. What kind of intellect level are we dealing with here. It's just common sense. It can be Big Band, or acid jazz, if you don't know the tune, you have to read it.
Duh....Para and I are saying, that reading is a tool, and something that is misrepresented. Students automatically connect big band drumming with charts, and this is wrong.

SDK went to HASS' board and asked a similar question. He replied fairly fast:
http://www.stevehass.net/discus/mess...tml?1117402979

or here:
<<<posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:42 pm:

Hey SDK, good to see you here again!

I'm assuming your fingers are slipping around on the keys
and you mean BIG BAND music right? Well then.

The direct simple answer to your question is NO.
No you don't have to read. You don't have to read to play anything.

In fact, reading is sometimes used as a crutch for beginner students. Developing your ears is the most important factor in music. Reading is helpful to me if I haven't played something in a long while, or if I'm going in completely cold. In the real world there are rehearsals, unless it's a jingle spot. In jingles 99% of the music is so simple you don't need to read. Check out the Basie like tunes I did for the history channel. They didn't even have charts in that session. I was on the phone with my friend and amazing musician Ralph Humphrey just a few days ago, and he actually told me not to move to LA after I said I was doing about 4/5 sessions a month in NYC. He said LA was completely dry. And that's even more than the big guns are doing over there. Can you believe it? In NYC I still do sessions where there's a full orchestra and big band. I don't mean to get side tracked. So........

If I were teaching a beginner about big band drumming, I would have them play along to CD's, before any reading was involved. There are many different approaches, however the drummers that really play the style well don't concentrate on reading. It's more of a groove thing. It's not hard to remember 24 bars worth of collective ensemble figures. If it is, you have something else to work on. Counting bars and worrying about an upcoming shout chorus is not the way to go. It's more important to get inside the music.

Now, I'm not saying don't work on your reading. Reading can and will make your life easier in every style. Last minute gigs, subbing etc. It's surely not a must. I studied big band drumming back in high school with an amazing drummer who played in WHermans band, Dave Ratijcek. The first thing Dave did, was close the book. And asked me to sing the tune. He said playing time and hitting some figures isn't playing music. He said play the tune. From then on, I got the picture.

I hope this helped. Again, with any style I suggest the "from the ground up" approach. Checking out drummers who excel in the style, not the superstar drummers of today on the Buddy Rich Memorial Concert. If you go into any jazz big band situation playing like that, you'll get fired after the first chorus. Trust me. Even the seasoned session guys on that tape wouldn't approach it that way had it been a regular big band session date. That was what I call a chops blowout. People payed to see blood! haha!!

Mel Lewis, Jake Hanna, Butch Miles, Sonny Paine, Sam Woodyard, etc.. Those cats. Once you've digested them fully, then you'll find yourself putting your own spin on things. I did a live dvd of The Manhattan Transfers Christmas show, with all these hip arrangements of Christmas music. In the middle of Happy Holidays I played double bass. Ala Sam Woodyard or Louis. HAHA! It just came out. So anything can happen. But....It felt good.
Good luck with it, I hope my advice helped. >>>

Sounds a lot like what we're saying. Hmmmm.....

oh BTW I just went here:
http://www.stevehass.net/listen-film_tv.html

Go to Basie vibe, it swings like HELL!

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Originally posted by Flarobstix:
Well, again the HOD'rs think they know it all. It's ok . . . What kind of intellect level are we dealing with here. It's just common sense. It can be Big Band, or acid jazz, if you don't know the tune, you have to read it.
Duh....Para and I are saying, that reading is a tool, and something that is misrepresented. Students automatically connect big band drumming with charts, and this is wrong.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The first few sentences are offensive and you know it. This is an exchange of opinions and the matter in question is certainly more than just common sense. What level of intellect are we dealing with here? Well, lets just say I have yet to find a board that is superior to HOD. While I can follow what Hass is saying (I should add that I have nothing but respect for him and his drumming), that is simply his opinion. Reading is a tool used for beginners? I think not Mr. Hass.

There's no question that "feel" is a big part of the whole scheme of playing any style, not just Jazz of other variations of it. Some guys have it, some don't. It's partially genetic to a certain degree and partially "learned". That's why there are the greats, and there's the working dudes that play T40 southern rock gigs (not to say that some of those guys aren't mofo's either in thier own respect) [img]wink.gif[/img]

But I think we're getting lost in this discussion because it started out with Rafaels asking of how to attempt playing in a big band situation. Thus the reason I asked at what level he was saturated at with this style of music. Sounds like since he's already playing other styles of music, he should have a really good jump start on things. And I totally agree with the fact that musicality and having HUGE ears is a big part of things. That goes without saying to any pro or any good critic of music.

DeepFried...

I can totally relate to your words. Sometimes simplicity is what the tune calls for, other times a tune may have tons of sections to blow on. Sometimes it's more so who you are (i.e. Vinnie on the BRM vid or Buddy Rich playing in someone elses band) that affords them to play more as a "featured" artist rather than "the guy that usually plays this or that gig". So the latter are usually given more independant/soloistic freedom in what they play. Thats the cool thing about music in general. Add a vocalist to that whole scenario and it changes the dynamic vastly. Somtimes too... you get a director that is just a nazi and wants to play the tune "his way". Thats cool too. Many big band leaders have taken rock and various other styles of music/tunes and arranged them into Big Band charts. Who's to say what to play and when to play it. But I completely understand the "less is more" concept. And in a "professional situation", I think you'll get along better sticking to what Dazz and Deep Fried says. Play for the music rather than your ego.

As far as Flarob, SDK, and Paraflam are concerned. I just have a problem with the way in which they seem to "insult" these other great players when 1/2 the time they don't know the whole jist of who they've played with, what musical experiences they've had, or what they are or aren't recorded as playing (as in particular styles).

Florob writes......
"Students automatically connect big band drumming with charts, and this is wrong".

Flarob.....

I would make a wager with you that with the MAJORITY of big band gigs, you'll find EVERYONE with charts in front of them. I wonder why??

I know... its because they don't need them [img]wink.gif[/img]

I think Hass was saying reading can be a crutch for beginners who learn only to play what is put in front of them vs. using their ears in a situation. (BB or otherwise) He's just trying to emphasize the music side vs. the skill of reading side. (Something like being able to read English very well would not make you a fantastic writer)

Dazz pretty much said it all on this topic I think.

Yeah my apologies on the frustration. But I think it's EXTREMELY obvious that if someone doesn't know a tune and can't learn it, they have to learn. It's common sense. That's NOT what we're talking about.
Also, try reading HASS' reply slowly, he doesn't anywhere, that reading is for beginners. It may be a language issue because we're not all from the UK or the US. Nevertheless he didn't say that. Derek nailed it, so did Dazzler. The only thing I disagree with was the "reading is a must" part. That's simply not true. Not only do we have proof via Buddy Rich, Dennis Chambers etc..But we also have another session pro saying it. The original poster of this thread never said he's sitting in or subbing, did he? I thought he said he was joining a big band.

You know, we're all in this together. And I'm sorry if I come off too strong, but there's more often than not, too much false information given via advice, in this forum. And that's how this started.
Telling a young drummer who wants to learn BB to listen to a drum clinic with a big band behind it is not right. It's just not. He'll never survive. So occasionally I'll argue until my point gets through. Even with tons of validation and proof, some of you still say you can't play BB without reading. That's really silly. And it's all because it's engraved into your brains by these clinicians who aren't even considered to be BB drummers, so they can sell their books and clinics. You don't have to read music to play music period. It helps, that's all. For some wierd reason you think that BB's don't rehearse and you're always sitting in. Why just because at LAMA they do it that way? That rarely happens, unless you're a session ace. Most BB's rehearse, and they rehearse alot. Most of them give you a CD of the arrangements.
that's all. :-)

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What I don't understand is how everyone is saying, yes PARA is right. Yet you're all still saying reading is a must.
Reading is a must for those people with poor musical memory and/or playing something for the very first time. Otherwise it's not a must.
It was said earlier. Buddy Rich was a very successful sideman in the beginning of his career without reading. Dennis Chambers doesn't read a note and plays some of the hardest music to date with J.M.
Reading is a useful skill, but not a must to play any style. It's actually more musically beneficial to not read, in order to develop you ears and memorization skills.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I agree to some extent, Flarobstix as reading music at the end of the day, is simply an aid to memory. Because if someomeone wants us to play and understand their music for the very first time without uttering a word, then placing a well written chart in front of us will allow the composer to have his ideas realised.

It's all about music, but if you want to work, then you have to be able to go into any situation and interpret charts that will enable you to make the best out of the charts. If you have the opportunity to memorise the charts and go in and play them, then that's great.
Being able to read is about going into a situation and being able to play the music for the very first time, without being spoken to.

If you think that reading is unmusical then you're very much mistaken Flarobstix and you're simply trying to justifying your own shortfalls and thus limiting your own musicality, if you want to get into an argument about 'is reading important'?

.....It bloody is if you want to work and also be able to play someobdy's music for the first time. What you are doing is elliminatimng every bit of work that doesn't have the luxury of sending you a CD in advance and also attempting to say that reading is linked to unmusiclaity, if you will. This is not an excuse and the vast majority of players that we respect read to the highest of levels.

I happen to know of friends of mine (here in the UK) that have recorded jazz albums with heavyweight New York Jazzers, based on their ability to read and interpret charts. Not being able to read is NOT an excuse and will show your inadequecy as a musician.

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Dennis Chambers doesn't read a note and plays some of the hardest music to date with J.M.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So let me see you go in and play 2 sets of big band music after never having heard or seen the music before. Don't belitlltle the abilty to sight read. it's a must, unless you get the music presented to you weeks in advance Flarobstix . This does not make Dennis a better musician than someone who is schooled enough to interpret charts on the first viewing.

It is an utterly necessary skill, unless you are Yuri Geller an have an uncanny knack of memorising or second guessing the music without having even heard it before. You are clearly not a working musician as you are shouting down the most basic of drumming skills.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>

Rafael,

First, I've got just a little big band experience reading real big band charts. So, please take this to heart.

Second, I've read a lot of stuff here that I strongly disagree with. At the risk of making enemies, I'm going to ask you to ignore most of the posts on this thread about the necessity (or not) of reading. Sure, if you are a seasoned big band drummer (which you said you aren't) who doesn't read, you can get by until you've learned the parts well enough to do what a big band drummer is supposed to do. Unfortunately, the seasoned big band drummers who don't read, are mostly dead. When you show up for a professional big band gig today, you will be expected to be able to read the charts, nail the important kicks, and play with great swing feel at the same time. If you don't read, how are you going to know where the important kicks are?

There is a GREAT method book dedicated to chart reading called "Chart Reading Workbook for Drummers" by Bobby Gabriel. Get it!
If you master that book (it'll take a month if you put in 2 hours a day), you'll be a better chart reader than 90% of the drummers out there.

Now, I'm going to repeat what I said before, as a bit of a crash course for what's in the book. Hopefully, a little more clearly and succinctly.

Your first job is to play a driving pulse. Play on top of the beat and play the bass drum on the quarter notes a little bit louder than the feathering you would play in a small combo. Try to blend in with the bass. Don't be afraid to play a heavy backbeat on 2 and 4 ala Ed Shaughnessey (one of the best living big band drummers) if the music calls for it.

The second important role for a big band drummer is to set up and accent the ensemble figures (phrases played by the entire band). You'll recognize the ensemble figures because they will be written in the staves. If it's a proper big band chart (rather than a lead sheet) the ensemble figures that you will be expected to set up and accent will be written into your chart as a rhythmic figure.

Now, here's the crash course. You will find that most of these rhythmic figures will end on the & of 2 or & of 4 with a tied note. Many times there will only be a tied note on the & of 2 or & of 4. A tied note is a long sustained note, and will be a big blow by the band that you should crash on. But, before you crash you should play a little setup to add excitement and anticipation to the big blow. Sometimes the setup will be written, sometimes you have to make one up. The most common and simple setup is a 2 stroke figure on snare that ends on 2 or 4 and then crash on the & of 2 or & of 4 as the case may be: ba-du-bah! Very simple and effective. You can also play a 3 stroke ruff as the setup and then crash. If the tied note is on the beat (ie: on 4), you can flam on 3 as a very effective setup. With more experience, you can play longer more interesting setups ala Mel Lewis.

Section figures can also be played but don't have to be. They will be written on top of the staves. If you want, just play them lightly on snare while keeping time.

Having said all this, I'm presuming that you have basic reading skills. If not, and you have no big band experience, you'll need a lot of rehearsals to be able to play the songs well.

Hope this was helpful. And break a leg. [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>